From fsb-return-619-Bernard.Lang=inria.fr@crynwr.com Sun Mar 1 23:13:02 1998 Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by margaux.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA01162 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:12:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from ns.crynwr.com (ns.crynwr.com [192.203.178.14]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA01761 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:12:52 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 969 invoked by alias); 1 Mar 1998 22:13:15 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 960 invoked by uid 0); 1 Mar 1998 22:13:14 -0000 Received: from desk.crynwr.com (128.153.44.67) by ns.crynwr.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 1998 22:13:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 25534 invoked by uid 501); 1 Mar 1998 22:13:12 -0000 Date: 1 Mar 1998 22:13:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19980301221311.25533.qmail@desk.crynwr.com> From: Russell Nelson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Reinoud Lamberts CC: Eric Raymond , fsb@crynwr.com Subject: www.opensource.org/secrets.html X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: $K'YURj"g6ImvqTS_=]8)gqh!5;ElY<[.Rao%j8r+]iUfE{%|v%F<=mcq<6l{K=~mf&#:?" nslS]U~|x{2V=Eex_I#"9K~9)>?m7Lm={(j_&)SX~fzg&ST~P%QUhc{1p]c3@Zn1u*PZlkHM**X^vV l>GkB5y^Kz%w5p~^uDue]hL&ke,N;+Q http://web.crynwr.com/~nelson Crynwr supports Open Source(tm) Software| PGPok | Freedom is the primary 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | cause of Peace, Love, Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | Truth and Justice. From fsb-return-620-Bernard.Lang=inria.fr@crynwr.com Mon Mar 2 00:05:49 1998 Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by margaux.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA01214 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:05:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from ns.crynwr.com (ns.crynwr.com [192.203.178.14]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02078 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:05:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 1994 invoked by alias); 1 Mar 1998 23:06:10 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 1980 invoked by uid 0); 1 Mar 1998 23:06:08 -0000 Received: from cm20813845107.cableco-op.com (HELO earthlink.net) (208.138.45.107) by pdam.crynwr.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 1998 23:06:08 -0000 Received: (from jsshapiro@localhost) by earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05384; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:09:24 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:09:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199803012009.PAA05384@earthlink.net> From: "Jonathan S. Shapiro" To: nelson@crynwr.com CC: dus@casema.net, esr@snark.thyrsus.com, fsb@crynwr.com In-reply-to: <19980301221311.25533.qmail@desk.crynwr.com> (message from Russell Nelson on 1 Mar 1998 22:13:11 -0000) Subject: Re: www.opensource.org/secrets.html References: <19980301221311.25533.qmail@desk.crynwr.com> Status: R Russ: A couple of thoughts, amplifications and (perhaps) clarifications on your note. A general observation: it's always better to acknowledge the issue and address it than tell the person they are an idiot -- even when it is true. > Objection: Hacked Code... Why use a third party's losing code when > you could stick with the vendor's code? This argument cuts both ways, and I don't recommend it. A better response might go like this: 1. Acknowledge the Issue: Customers who run Windows or similar operating systems go to the source for their drivers. That's generally Microsoft, or sometimes the vendor. Hacked source *is* a potential issue for other operating system users, but it is not the *vendor's* issue -- those people elected to run a system the vendor doesn't support. Period. 2. Point out the upside: When you look at where the performance advances are coming from, they aren't coming from industry. They are coming from private individuals and researchers. As a recent example, look at what the 'UNET' project was able to do by rewriting the board-level microcode. They took relatively "conventional" designs and turned them into miraculously high-performance devices. The best way to get good numbers, and to leverage those smart people, is to provide access to low-level documentation. > Objection: Getting stuck supporting a third-party product.... the > customer actually bought your product, so they are a customer. This argument won't wash. The vendor isn't worried about hardware problems here. The vendor is worried about installation support, which is why they only support selected platforms. While the customer bought the board, they are using it in an unsupported fashion, and the concern about customer support is real, legitemate, and pressing. I'ld propose a different response: 1. Acknowledge the issue: Yes, you are going to receive phone calls from some Linux users [substitute appropriately for "linux"]. 2. What to do: Support calls for Linux can be handled in two ways: a) Tell them that you don't support Linux, they are welcome to return the board to their vendor, and that's that. The board will quickly become known in the Linux community as expert-only, and the problem will go away. b) Tell them that while the *vendor* doesn't support the board in that configuration, information is available from [insert URL here]. Because the vendor doesn't support the board, the vendor takes no responsibility for the results of using that information, but as a service to our customers... In exchange for the fairly small step of doing (b), their product will likely gain appeal in the free software world, which will encourage those smart software people (who I mentioned above) to wring superb performance out of them. Point out to them that the second approach actually offloads support cost that they would actually be *paying* for if the user was running Windows, so it's found money. > Objection: Supporting third-party developers. 1. Yes you will get calls. 2. Be willing to ship out the documents at cost, and no more. You have to build those documents for internal use anyway. If you choose to be more active to promote sales, identify one or two contacts in the free software community to work with actively, and let *them* be the relay point for support. General comment: The vendor is being asked to make a cost/benefit/risk decision. What they need to hear is that the cost of putting this information out their is small, and that the benefit is a larger customer base *who will make their product work better.* The real benefit to the vendor is that by learning from the techniques that third parties come up with they become able to deliver better products in the future. shap From fsb-return-621-Bernard.Lang=inria.fr@crynwr.com Mon Mar 2 00:07:43 1998 Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by margaux.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA01221 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:07:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from ns.crynwr.com (ns.crynwr.com [192.203.178.14]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02111 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:07:41 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 2166 invoked by alias); 1 Mar 1998 23:08:06 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 2156 invoked by uid 0); 1 Mar 1998 23:08:04 -0000 Received: from locke.ccil.org (HELO snark.thyrsus.com) (esr@205.164.136.88) by pdam.crynwr.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 1998 23:08:04 -0000 Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18680; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:10:27 -0500 Message-ID: <19980301181027.03065@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:10:27 -0500 From: Eric Raymond To: Russell Nelson Cc: Reinoud Lamberts , fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: www.opensource.org/secrets.html References: <19980301221311.25533.qmail@desk.crynwr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <19980301221311.25533.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>; from Russell Nelson on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 10:13:11PM -0000 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Status: R Russell Nelson : > I have a few suggestions for www.opensource.org/secrets.html. I've > worked with a number of manufacturers to pry documentation out of > their fingers, and I've heard every one of these objections before. This is very good! May I have your permission to to edit and expand on it a bit? You make good arguments, but in a condensed form that makes it easy to miss some of the logical points. I want to recast it in a more narrative form with rationales. -- Eric S. Raymond You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle for independence. -- Attributed to Charles Austin Beard (1874-1948)